Poliquin - Healthy. Lean. Strong.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

I was having a debate with a co-worker who is a crossfit guy. He keeps claiming that handstand pusups are a better pushing exercise compared to heavy military presses and that most people can't even do 10 handstand pushups, so it has be super effective. His physique does not reflect that. Any comments?

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Any comment on blast-strap push-ups? I feel those a hell of a lot more in my chest/tris then regular push-ups, I figured it was because of the stabilization effect.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Interesting Charles and something i've long agreed with. i note the study says it doesnt improve or impair muscle activation so can you post sources to the other studies you mentioned which show greater activation on stable surfaces...would be keen to read as I've only seen one. Where do you sit on unstable surfaces andpropriaception for rehab...eg the physio favourite of wobble boards for ankle rehab?

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

My 2 cents and just conversating...

@Mike - I don't think the handstand push-ups would allow for full ROM since on the concentric portion of the movement because ur head would get in the way as opposed to the obvious differences of performing presses with DB's or BB's. I would challenge if he's balanced in relation to an old Coach Poliquin article I read recently regarding shoulder pressing... www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_lost_art_of_overhead_pressing

@Andy - I wonder if Coach Poliquin would consider straps a "surface" as I know I have seen Larry Jusdanis havinghis Elite athletes perform ring pushups as part of a chest routine at SST here in Canada. Coach Poliquin posted an article recently regarding Larry so I know Larry knows what he is doing and he is very successful training athletes!

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

I just cant figure out why do people think that doing pressing movements on a fucking ball would be better then an incline bench for example.
It should be obvious just by looking at the weights that people can handle that which one is better for strength development.
And the core.. I cant think of any better excercise for the "core" then squatting rock bottom without belt or deadlifting with snatchgrip. As coach Poliquin has mentioned time and time again, those are superior movements for core-strength.
I noticed that clearly when i started squatting multiple times a week, ive never had such an increase in the overall strength in such an short time. Especially in stability in everything, not just squatting.
So my conclusion, fuck the swiss balls for strength training!

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

@Andy & Krys - could one of the reasons you feel the blast straps more not be the greater ROM? with a standard push up the floor gets in the way.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Mike, could you clarify what your friend considers a handstand pushup to be? There's a world of difference between what most CF people I know *think* a handstand pushup is and what an elite gymnastics coach means by HSPU. Most Crosffiters I've seen use the wall to do some sort of freakish movement that looks like a walking-stick bug doing an inverted kipping pull up. This as well as the freestanding version are headstand pushups (HeSPU) not HSPUs. A real handstand pushup is done on rings or parallel bars and has a greater range of motion and is much more demanding. If you look at Charle's modified Seven Levels of Muscle Activation, Ring Dips are on level 7, as a true ring HSPU would likely be as well (note: TRX does no equal rings). Go research it though in the journals, that's half the point of these tips from Charles is to get us thinking and learning for ourselves :)

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Mike, could you clarify what your friend considers a handstand pushup to be? There's a world of difference between what most CF people I know *think* a handstand pushup is and what an elite gymnastics coach means by HSPU. Most Crosffiters I've seen use the wall to do some sort of freakish movement that looks like a walking-stick bug doing an inverted kipping pull up. This as well as the freestanding version are headstand pushups (HeSPU) not HSPUs. A real handstand pushup is done on rings or parallel bars and has a greater range of motion and is much more demanding. If you look at Charle's modified Seven Levels of Muscle Activation, Ring Dips are on level 7, as a true ring HSPU would likely be as well (note: TRX does no equal rings). Go research it though in the journals, that's half the point of these tips from Charles is to get us thinking and learning for ourselves :)

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

My 2 cents and just conversating...

@Mike - I don't think the handstand push-ups would allow for full ROM since on the concentric portion of the movement because ur head would get in the way as opposed to the obvious differences of performing presses with DB's or BB's. I would challenge if he's balanced in relation to an old Coach Poliquin article I read recently regarding shoulder pressing... www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_lost_art_of_overhead_pressing

@Andy - I wonder if Coach Poliquin would consider straps a "surface" as I know I have seen Larry Jusdanis havinghis Elite athletes perform ring pushups as part of a chest routine at SST here in Canada. Coach Poliquin posted an article recently regarding Larry so I know Larry knows what he is doing and he is very successful training athletes!

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

@Andy & Krys - could one of the reasons you feel the blast straps more not be the greater ROM? with a standard push up the floor gets in the way.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

@Andy & Krys - could one of the reasons you feel the blast straps more not be the greater ROM? with a standard push up the floor gets in the way.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

I just cant figure out why do people think that doing pressing movements on a fucking ball would be better then an incline bench for example.
It should be obvious just by looking at the weights that people can handle that which one is better for strength development.
And the core.. I cant think of any better excercise for the "core" then squatting rock bottom without belt or deadlifting with snatchgrip. As coach Poliquin has mentioned time and time again, those are superior movements for core-strength.
I noticed that clearly when i started squatting multiple times a week, ive never had such an increase in the overall strength in such an short time. Especially in stability in everything, not just squatting.
So my conclusion, fuck the swiss balls for strength training!

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Sorry in advance for the re-post. I refreshed my browser and it re-sent my previous post.

@Dave T - GREAT point you made regarding the straps, I agree whole-heartedly

@Cory, another great point you made regarding the Seven Levels of activation, so ur right it mst be the range of motion that makes the difference between doing it with rings vs. the floor!

Great convo to get my brain thinking, thanks guy and Caoch Poliquin!

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

@Janne... it thought swiss balls were good for squatting? :) j/k

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

@Andy & Krys - could one of the reasons you feel the blast straps more not be the greater ROM? with a standard push up the floor gets in the way.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

@Andy & Krys - could one of the reasons you feel the blast straps more not be the greater ROM? with a standard push up the floor gets in the way.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

sorry guys...some wierd triple post thing going on here; hopefully this one doesnt do the same :( good convo anyway

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Well.... the swiss ball does have its place in pressing. I remember reading a book not long ago that said it was "the future". Doing dumbbell presses on a swiss ball allows you to use the "bounce" at the bottom to get the weight up so you can do a slow negative. At least I THINK that was the gist of the chapter from Poliquin Principles.

How are TRX straps different from rings besides being flat? Just curious. Is it just a matter of how high up you grab on?

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

one of the advantages of using a ball for strength training is the dynamic nature of the ball itself. you can for instance do a flat DB chest press, and then adjust to do an incline negative which is a bit harder.

or one of poliquin's examples is for arm training, doing the concentric portion of the DB curl in a more upright position, and then rolling back on the ball as one does the negative to prolong the maximum sticking point across a greater ROM.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Another point... Very few coaches or personal trainers get athletes or clients for an unlimited amount of time. Pressing on a swiss ball will require less weight. Less weight means less volume over a workout and less volume over a 3-4 week cycle. I only am able to get my hockey athletes for 3 months in the off season and I still compete with camps in the summer. The clock is ticking all the time. There isn't enough time in a workout to mess around with "core" stabilizing exercises after performing Olympic Lifts, squat variations, and single leg variations. Weight the exercises don't train the "core"(gosh I hate that word). How about energy system and speed work? I guess I should leave that out for squatting and pressing on a swiss ball! 3x10 makes a champion!!! hahaha!

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Совет 174: Нестабильные поверхности не усиливают активизацию мышц по сравнению со стабильными. Вопреки популярному мнению, выполнение жимов от груди или от плеч на фитболе не усиливает активацию мышц пресса, плеч или груди. (JSCR 24: 1028-1033,2010). Другие исследования, с более опытными тяжелоатлетами, показали большую активация на стабильных поверхностях.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

I see those clowns every single day and their poor clients thinking that they are doing something good for them.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

well, I understand that there is no need for an experienced lifter to do DB presses seated on the swiss ball because the limiting factor becomes stability. So it is obvious that if an experienced lifter can take 60 pounds DB on the swiss ball but 75 pounds DB seated on the bench he gets more bang for his buck. But are you saying that even for a housewife who can barely play with 12 pounds DB, there is no advantage whatsoever to make her do DB presses on the SB?

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Dave - no it's not the ROM (from my own experience).

Maybe it's closed chain/open chain thing... i.e., sitting on a bosu ball = closed chain, hands on rings = open chain... or I might be completely wrong, not entirely sure.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Ring exercises are still a closed chain , it's still consistent contact with a surface (yes, how unstable they might be, the rings still count as a surface). With Handstand Push-ups (and I mean full range of motion, bicep touching forearm) your forearms stay unmoving just on Parallel bars.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

like on Parallel Bars*

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

I've been wondering why I can barbell and dumbbell press more weight when lying on a stability ball then on a bench? any one who have had that experience before?

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

It won't help an Olympic lifter, power lifter or bodybuilder, but it will help a surfer, skateboarder, snowboarder and circo de solei performer.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

@ Abdiel

Not as much as surfing, skateboarding, snowboarding or circus acts will help.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Whatever movement you program yourself or a client to do has to have a purpose. Unstable surfaces work great when the goal is to perform in such type of surface ...so yeah like someone said fuck the swiss ball if what you want is to put a bikini and oil yourself in front of an audience squeezing your glutes...but if you perform on unstable surfaces the swiss ball is a great piece of equipment(surfing,skating,motorcross,hockey,ski etc).So a type of surace is not better or worse ...it just depends on what you are using it for...

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Strenght training for a bodybuilder or a professional lifter is different than strength training for a big wave surfer or snowboarder ___This guys need a lot of strength during short periods in situations where they need to perform and react to unstable surfaces and lots of speed. You dont get this from a leg press machine...

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Conseil 174: Les surfaces instables n'augmentent pas l'activation plus que les surfaces stables. Contrairement à ce que les "clowns de l'entraînement fonctionnel" aimeraient croire, faire des développés avec haltères et des développés des épaules avec haltères sur ballon suisse n'activent pas plus les muscles droit de l'abdomen, les deltoïdes ou les grands pectoraux (JSCR 24: 1028-1033,2010). D'autres études, utilisant des athlètes plus expérimentés, ont démontré une plus grande activation sur des surfaces stables.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Unstable for upper extremity good, unstable for lower extremity not so good.

Pressing on a swissball doesn't really equate to unstable traiing in my view unless you use only one hand. Then it becomes a core exercise not so much a pressing exercise.

Push ups on rings definetly recruit more fibres than on the floor, but not more than heavy bench press.

Re: Tip 174: Unstable surfaces do not increase activation more than stable surfaces

Has anyone gor access to the whole article?

I would love to read